Hila (00:40)

That was so much fun.

Caroline (00:43)

That was the best. I cannot even believe how much amazing free information we just got out of that interview. It was so helpful. Yes. Yes, truly, truly. Even being one of those frantic, neurotic Googlers, I did not get that much information through my months of late night Google rabbit holes. So that was just amazing. so, like such a relief, I feel like, to just

Hila (00:51)

Thank you, Sammy. You're our sleep god.

Caroline (01:09)

have it all laid out to understand and from someone who just approaches it with this really calm energy, just feel truly like, after hearing her.

Hila (01:19)

Yeah, she makes the gray feel really comfortable and safe. Whereas like so much of new momhood is so black and white.

Caroline (01:23)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (01:28)

And the gray feels really scary, but with Sammy, she does bring a sense of peace and calm and freedom. That kept coming to my mind as she was speaking. Like, you're really empowering new parents to make these decisions and to learn how to trust themselves and their ability to read their baby. It's amazing.

Caroline (01:45)

Absolutely, yeah, I love that piece too that she mentioned at the end. Learn from your baby, let that be the driving force versus whatever wake window table you've been looking at. Your baby is telling you what they need and kind of tune into them before going to whatever arbitrary guidelines that you might be following.

Hila (02:05)

Can we actually go into that for a second? Because I felt very inspired by that whole conversation in terms of crying as a, as a form of communication and how different sleep training techniques will allow you to teach your child to tolerate very difficult emotions. And it will teach them that you can tolerate their difficult emotions as well.

Caroline (02:11)

Let's do it.

Mm-hmm.

Hila (02:31)

giving them

Caroline (02:31)

Absolutely. And I think if we start with the adult outcome, so many of the people that I work with in the anxiety space they've grown up learning that happy is the baseline. If you're not happy, your feelings are wrong. That's what you are going for at all times. And it creates so much

pressure to change your emotional experience and that's really anxiety producing. Anytime I feel anything that's not happiness, I'm trying to suppress it or I'm judging it or I'm trying to change it, fix it, control it, get rid of it. And that is what I see as kind of like the conceptual basis for so much anxiety in adulthood. And so if we kind of bring that back to childhood and we're teaching kids right off the bat, even as babies.

that whatever you're feeling is totally fine and we're here in that together and your emotion is not a problem to be solved. That is just setting them up for success down the road when it comes to mental health and emotional wellbeing.

Hila (03:32)

that's something that I really appreciated about meeting with Sammy was that she was very frank about saying there is no easy one, two, three solution.

Caroline (03:41)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (03:42)

that it's a great guideline to have and it may actually work for your baby, but it may not. And that there is more nuance.

Caroline (03:46)

Right, right, and it's the expectation. Totally, yeah, the expectation is where we get caught. You can use the guidelines, but if the expectation is perfection or a really specific outcome, You're gonna feel like you're banging your head against the wall.

Hila (04:02)

Yeah, yeah,

It really relates back to Dr. Tuesday.

Caroline (04:08)

I know, it's so fun having all of these interviews because they really do all link together. It all comes back down to the same themes, values, what works for you, your intuition, trusting yourself, It transcends all the different topics.

Hila (04:08)

wait.

and using the information that's out there as guidelines, not as a goalpost.

Caroline (04:27)

Mm hmm. Totally. One of the things I also loved about this conversation that I'm curious for your thoughts on is, you we were talking about how sleep training and just making sleep decisions in general is so controversial in the social media world. Like people really get heated about the choices not only that they're making, but like they get mad at other people for making other choices or for spreading information about some of these other choices. And

I have lots of thoughts about why this is the case, but I'm curious for you, where does this come from, do you think?

Hila (05:03)

That's a great question.

Caroline (05:04)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (05:05)

I think it relates back to a fear of judgment. And I think that fuels a lot of guilt in new moms. I mean, I see a lot of moms coming and feeling guilty no matter what choice they make. And it seems like no one is ever fully sure and secure.

Caroline (05:10)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (05:24)

about their decisions, whether it's to sleep train or not, or to breastfeed or formula feed. And I think it gets it goes back to this fear of being judged by their friends, their parents, their mother in laws, social media, their doctors, and it trolls on the internet. It's, I think that that guilt can be really paralyzing.

Caroline (05:46)

totally.

Absolutely.

Hila (05:50)

And know, mom is just trying to do what's best for her baby, while also constantly questioning if she's making the right choice. And I think that that in between of, want to be the best mom that I can be for this child, am I making the right decision, that space can really take a toll, especially when the mom will feel pressure in justifying her parenting decisions.

Caroline (06:12)

Yeah, it can feel like there's this spotlight on you around the decisions you're making and wanting to make sure that you're kind of like performing in the right way with that, which is just so much added pressure that's just so unnecessary, but creates so much additional stress and anxiety. And I think the other piece too, there's also just this really like

of primal desire to make the right decisions as a mom. And this is one place where because there are so many opinions out there and so many external expectations and ideas from other people that we're really just, we don't know. We're like, I don't know if this is right or wrong and that sucks. And so the way that I'm going to stand in my decision is to shoot down other people's decisions and say like, what you have done is wrong. Like I am right on this because the fear of being in the wrong is just too painful.

Hila (06:56)

Ha ha.

Caroline (07:03)

So I've got to stand my ground here and like really, you know, plant my flag in this. Which of course not the most helpful or effective way to handle it, but I can understand where that comes from.

I think another reason that this can be so heated is because of what Sami was talking about. There's so much like attachment stuff in here. And that's like a very buzzy word on social media. We all want to foster secure attachment with our kids. And that's great. like that's an excellent goal. And it's become again, this like really

Hila (07:25)

Mm-hmm.

Caroline (07:33)

black or white thing where it's like, if you sleep train, you will damage your attachment with your child. If you yell, you will damage your attachment with your child. Like there's so many rules and regulations that are super rigid around this. So I think that that's where the sleep space gets really scary and difficult.

Hila (07:48)

nasty. And I think people forget or don't realize how resilient babies are and their kids are and it's going to take so much to damage that attachment. Like I think you really have to try to damage it in order to damage it significantly.

Caroline (07:55)

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes, I actually work with a child psychologist as one of my clients. And I don't remember the context of how this came up, but she said in one of our sessions once that it really takes a lot to mess up a kid. It's not something that happens just because you were at your wits end and you put them down in the crib and you close the door for a minute so you could take some deep breaths. That's not going to be the thing.

that changes it. The metaphor that I use for kind of this like attachment relationship is to think of it like a really stretchy rubber band. Like we have in our mind that like any one thing is going to snap the rubber band, but really, it takes quite a lot, you know, abuse, of course, that's something repeated, like neglect and emotional abuse, like over time that rubber band is going to wear, and it's not going to have the same kind of stretch anymore.

Hila (08:35)

you

Caroline (08:55)

But things like sleep training, it's not going to snap it. It's going to come back to its original form. And I think that that can really just introduce a little bit more of a sense of flexibility and calm in that process too.

Hila (09:09)

I really appreciate that example. It reminds me of something that Sammy shared after we recorded, the question that she likes to have parents ask themselves, is this a need or is this a want? And it feels like if you are not giving...

Caroline (09:23)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hila (09:29)

your child what they want in that moment because their reactions are so strong and it pulls on your heartstrings. It feels like it's really pulling on that elastic band, but reminding yourself this is just a want. And sometimes I feel that way when I don't get what I want. And also I recover fully

Caroline (09:47)

absolutely. And we can validate that want, know, in whatever way you approach sleep, whether it's in the morning, you talk about it or before bed, you say like, hey, I'm going to be right outside your door. And I know that you're really going to want me. And, know, there's so much that we can do around forming that connection and helping our kids kind of understand what's going on. Of course, that's I'm thinking from a toddler perspective, not a newborn perspective, where that's a little bit harder. But

Hila (10:11)

Mm.

Caroline (10:13)

It's just not so black and white. It's not either you shut the door and leave and you don't come back until the morning, like Sami said, or you're holding them all night. There's a lot of different ways that you can put this into action to foster that supportive, responsive feeling.

Hila (10:27)

And it all relates back to what's right for you and your family.

Caroline (10:33)

Absolutely. I think that's another thing too, where people see information about sleep out there and they take it as a personal indictment of whatever choice they made, if it's different. So you see something that's in support of sleep training or whatever and then you're like, well screw that, my kid is fine, we've been co-sleeping the whole time and everything is great. And that's awesome. Whatever choice you're making, if it's working for you.

amazing, stick with it, don't change a thing. If you're struggling, you've got options and there's a lot of different ways that you can approach that.

Hila (11:07)

Yeah,

I think recognizing that other people have different preferences and different things that work for them is very much related to the feeling of tolerating your uncertainty. That just because something works for someone else has no reflection on the decision that you have made in terms of parenting your child.

Caroline (11:18)

Mm-hmm.

totally. That's like exactly it. And I think that comes back also to what Sammi was saying about babies with different sleep needs too. Like some babies don't need a lot of intervention when it comes to sleep. Like they are just naturally good sleepers. Other babies need a lot of intervention. And so I think keeping that in mind too, when you're seeing decisions that other people are making on social media or within your friend group or whatever, when it comes to baby sleep, you don't have the whole story.

You don't know, and neither do other people. So like only you know what needs to happen for your family. And all of that nuance is gonna change the decision that you make.

Hila (12:01)

Totally, and even then, I mean, this is partly a joke, but you are so sleep deprived yourself, you don't even know the full story. I mean, I've grown up my entire life having my mom tell me, you were the best sleeper, you were asleep all night at six weeks, And then it was only later that, you know, she had shared this information in front of my dad, and he was like, yeah, because for the first six weeks, I was up with her all night.

Caroline (12:08)

Right.

Hila (12:25)

And then on the sixth week, it was your chance to start taking care of her in the middle of the night and you would just sleep through the night and like not hear her. And that's why she slept through the night, So it's really hard to know what works for someone else. And I always tell, your patients. Try to limit how much you ask your friends for advice.

Caroline (12:32)

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, totally.

Hila (12:50)

it's a tough one because they are there for support and you know, can be so helpful to vent to someone and to share how you're feeling with someone that maybe is going through something similar. But it gets a little tricky and a little choppy when all of the advice that you're following is from like eight of your friends and they're all doing different things. It can get so confusing and then you don't, you end up having difficulty trusting yourself and your intuition.

Caroline (13:00)

Mm-hmm.

right.

Totally.

Right. Right. What we really want to build is that muscle of intuitive decision making. And that's really hard to do if there's a lot of interference from other sources. So really tuning into what feels right to me, what feels right to my partner, what feels right for our baby. There are so many factors that matter more than what your friends did or what your in-laws did or any of that stuff.

Hila (13:38)

Another thing that I wanted to bring up that Sammy had mentioned was what are the components of the anxiety that she sees mostly in working with new moms? And the first one was things are really uncertain and things are going to change and I don't know how they're going to change. And the second part of that anxiety is, and I won't be able to handle it.

Caroline (13:59)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (14:00)

And the way that she broke it down in terms of what she does with her patients is one, accepting that things are going to change and setting those realistic expectations that your baby's sleep is going to change and you're going to have to kind of be flexible with it. Two, asking yourself, do I have a plan and figuring out what is that plan that works for you and your baby and your family? And the third part how do I want to

Caroline (14:21)

Mm-hmm.

Hila (14:24)

tolerate the uncertainty.

And just having those questions put out there I thought was really helpful.

Caroline (14:31)

helpful. Yeah, think the biggest tricks that anxiety plays on us are that

whatever like bad outcome we're worried about happening, that that's like much more likely to happen than it probably really is. That's that uncertainty piece. And then the second piece is that if it were to happen, it would be much bigger, more catastrophic, worse, harder to handle than it probably really would be. And that's underestimating our own kind of coping ability. And so sleep just like really pulls at both of these things because we don't know what the heck is going on. We don't know exactly how to handle it. And I really think that this is like the most

at least in my experience, learn by doing aspect of being a mom. And so it's really hard to build that self-trust in those early stages. It's just really a learning curve. But over time, I remember a friend actually telling me like,

when I was worried about going back to work and being really tired, she was like, there will be days that you are, but as soon as you have a two hour night and then you make it through the next day, then you're like, okay, I got it. I can handle it. And I think just being patient for those moments of like, you'll show yourself eventually that you can handle it. You can cope, you'll be okay.

Hila (15:41)

Totally. I'm so curious how you approach this in the therapy room. Because I oftentimes find myself like, okay, this is a time where you need to put yourself out there and teach yourself that you can trust yourself that you won't be able to know unless you put yourself in the uncomfortable situation.

how do you encourage patients to take that leap and make that jump?

Caroline (16:03)

think one aspect of it for me is really being with them and that uncertainty. Often I want to give reassurance of like, it's gonna be fine, I promise, you got this, it's okay. But that's not doing anyone any favors because that's just kind of feeding into this idea that you can't.

you can't hang out in that uncertain space. So if they're coming in and saying like, you know, I'm going to go back to work and it's going to be such a mess Often my response is like, maybe, I don't know, like it's possible.

I don't know that, you don't know that, let's wait and see what happens. Let's not go there yet. Let's stay in the moment right now and think about, okay, well, what do I want to do if I do have a really bad night of sleep? Do I want to let my team in on what's going on? Tell them, like, hey, I need you to bear with me today. Do I want to have like an emergency nap plan at some point in that day? You know, like, let's think about what you can do versus jumping to conclusions of how bad it's going to be because we really don't know that yet. It might surprise you that like

I actually do okay a couple days a week having less sleep. It's not as hard as I thought that it was going to be. So long answer kind of summed up is just like really embracing that uncertainty. No one knows what's going to happen. So let's not borrow trouble before we get there. What about you?

Hila (17:15)

it's none of current me's business what happens in the future. And that is such a great question to ask when you're having to tolerate that anxiety or that discomfort or the uncertainty.

Caroline (17:17)

Yup. Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Hila (17:27)

I think I do something very similar. I'm thinking of a specific case where there was a really big fear of judgment from other people if the baby were to cry and be inconsolable And that really prevented her from leaving the house and going to coffee with friends, leaving the house on her own to run errands with the baby.

going to classes with baby And I think another aspect to tolerating that anxiety without giving reassurance because we don't know what's going to happen is focusing on values. And I know I'm like barking up the right tree here, focusing on what's really, what's really important for mom.

Caroline (18:04)

you

Hila (18:09)

Does she miss her friends? Does she wish that she spent more time with them? Maybe it's going for a walk around the block, She hasn't been outside in a really long time. How can we focus on what's important for her and gently push her in a direction that's in line with her values where some uncertainty will pop up, but she'll feel good enough because she's doing something that she knows she loves and values.

Caroline (18:33)

Right, exactly. Yeah, doing what's consistent with your values doesn't mean nothing bad happens or that we know for sure it's the right decision, it just means

that it comes from a place of intention and care and meaning for us, and that can be really protective in those moments when things do go a little sideways. And I think for me, that was in my own experience, really what needed to happen because I was doing everything, Sami said. I was in baby jail. I was spending half the day in a dark nursery, forcing myself to try to get my son to sleep in his bassinet, trying to do everything by whatever sleep course I had taken.

And eventually I realized how much that was disconnecting me from the other things in my life that felt really important. Baby sleep was not a value over friendships, my marriage, getting out and getting a little bit of sunshine and exercise, having variety in my days, doing things that just felt fun and exciting. And as soon as I took that pressure off

got so much brighter again. And so I think just keeping in mind that, you know, if it's working for you to like be really stringent with the guidelines and stick with it, cool, do it. You don't need to change anything. If you feel like something is missing, see if you can experiment a little bit and see what happens. See if you can learn from doing that you can handle it if things don't go the way that you predict that they will.

Hila (19:57)

I really appreciate you sharing that and I think, you know, for you, you realize this is impacting my mental health. And as his mom, it's really important for me to feel good because that is what's going to positively impact that attachment. Not whether he sleeps for eight straight hours Or how I get him to sleep through the middle of the night.

Caroline (20:04)

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Exactly. Exactly. And I think that is like the number one thing that I took away from this conversation with Sammy. the decisions you make around sleep cannot come at the expense of your own mental health.

Hila (20:27)

I'm so happy that we had Sammy on the podcast focusing on baby sleep and how that can impact maternal mental health and the bidirectional connection between the two. Because in a couple of weeks, we're going to have Dr. Natalie Solomon on and she's going to focus on maternal mental health and maternal sleep and what happens during pregnancy and postpartum.

Caroline (20:48)

I'm so excited for that. Yes, it's so interesting and I think that's another thing where after we kind of solve some of the baby sleep difficulties often moms are left.

Hila (20:49)

It'll be an interesting perspective.

Caroline (20:59)

with their own kind of difficulty sleeping So I really can't wait for her to shine a light on some of those processes too, because I think there's a lot of attention on baby sleep, not a lot of attention on maternal sleep. So that's going to be great.

Well, this was such a great chat. I love this conversation and If anyone has not listened to Sammie's episode yet, go do yourself a favor, give it a listen. There is so much gold in there. Tune back in in a few weeks to hear Natalie's perspective on maternal sleep as well.